Update on Proposed New WCA Descriptors (EBR)
We've been passed the latest version of the Evidence Based Review WCA descriptors for people to comment on and scrutinise. This version has to be finalised by the end of the week so there isn't much time. If you leave comments below I can direct the right people to read them but due to health issues I won't be able to do more than that. There's also a slightly different scoring system proposed, but for consultation purposes all you really need to know is that the N/A, Occasional, Frequent, Most boxes roughly correlate to points as follows, 0, 6, 9, 15
Health prevents me from going through this in the detail it requires but my initial impression is that it has lost much of the simplicity of the earlier draft and it appears to me that this is much closer to what a joint test for ESA and PIP would look like... However, testing an alternative version of a WCA can only be a good thing if the DWP are sensible enough to compare both proposals and cherry pick the best parts..
But please bear in mind - intense pain and lots of oramorph do not make for good cognitive functioning!
Health prevents me from going through this in the detail it requires but my initial impression is that it has lost much of the simplicity of the earlier draft and it appears to me that this is much closer to what a joint test for ESA and PIP would look like... However, testing an alternative version of a WCA can only be a good thing if the DWP are sensible enough to compare both proposals and cherry pick the best parts..
But please bear in mind - intense pain and lots of oramorph do not make for good cognitive functioning!
Movement - within a work environment or travelling to work
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1. Mobilising
Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid normally used, for long periods indoors and outdoors without stopping, and climbing a flight of 12 steps without discomfort, exhaustion or risk of falling. This must be done reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, which takes into account speed, time taken and manner of mobilising.
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a
|
Has no difficulty mobilising indoors and outdoors
| ||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| ||
b
|
Cannot climb or descend a flight of 12 steps
| ||||
c
| |||||
d
|
Has significant difficulty[3] mobilising, indoors and outdoors, for long periods
| ||||
e
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Has some difficulty mobilising, indoors and outdoors, for short periods[4]
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f
|
Has significant difficulty mobilizing, indoors and outdoors, for short periods
| ||||
2. Getting About
Getting to familiar and unfamiliar places reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
| |||||
a
|
Has no difficulty getting to familiar and unfamiliar places.
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N/A
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Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| ||
b
|
Because of distress or disorientation has some difficulty getting to unfamiliar places
| ||||
c
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Because of distress or disorientation has significant difficulty getting to unfamiliar places
| ||||
d
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Because of distress or disorientation has some difficulty getting to familiar places
| ||||
e
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Because of distress or disorientation has significant difficulty getting to familiar places
| ||||
3. Navigating
Navigating around familiar and unfamiliar places unaided by another person reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, using a guide dog or other aid if normally used.
| |||||
a
|
Able to navigate around familiar and unfamiliar places
| ||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| ||
b
|
Has some difficulty navigating around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
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c
|
Has significant difficulty navigating around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
| ||||
d
|
Has some difficulty navigating around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
| ||||
e
|
Has significant difficulty navigating around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
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Movement – at a work station
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4. Standing and sitting
Reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, using any aid that it is reasonable to expect them to use, and without receiving physical assistance from another person:
· Staying in one position (such as a workstation) for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and
· Moving between this position and another.
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a
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Able to stay in one position for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and able to move between this position and another
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Claimant cannot:
| ||||||||||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||
b
|
Stay in one position (either by standing, sitting, or a combination of the two) unassisted by another person in one place for more than one hour without significant discomfort, loss of balance or exhaustion
| |||||||||||
c
|
Stay in one position unassisted by another person in one place for more than 30 minutes (either by standing, sitting, or a combination of the two) without significant discomfort, loss of balance or exhaustion
| |||||||||||
d
|
Move from a seated position to a mobilising position without physical assistance from another person
| |||||||||||
5. Reaching, picking up and moving
Reaching up, down or sideways a reasonable distance, and picking up and move a range of differently-sized objects up to 1kg
| ||||||||||||
a
|
Has no difficulty reaching and picking up objects
| |||||||||||
Due to difficulties with movement, strength, sensation or co-ordination of the upper body (arms, shoulders, back, neck) and/or lower body (hips, knees, ankles), cannot repeatedly, reliably and safely, without significant discomfort or exhaustion, from standing or sitting:
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N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||
b
|
Reach up, down or sideways a reasonable distance andreach and pick up and move a range of differently-sized objects up to 1kg (e.g. so as to reach and pick up something off a high or low shelf)
| |||||||||||
c
|
Pick up and move a an object up to 1kg with either hand
| |||||||||||
d
|
Pick up and move a bulky object (such as a cardboard box) up to 2kg
| |||||||||||
e
|
Reach up, down (i.e. through bending, kneeling or squatting) and sideways a reasonable distance
| |||||||||||
6. Manual dexterity/ hand movement
| ||||||||||||
a
|
Has no difficulty with finger, hand or wrist movements/manual dexterity
| |||||||||||
Has difficulty in one or both hands in repeatedly, reliably, safely and in a timely manner without significant discomfort or pain:
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N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||
b
|
Gripping and turning an object such as a:
· door handle, tap, lid or cap (so as to open a bottle/jar)
· dial on a radio or piece of machinery
| |||||||||||
c
|
Gripping and holding an object such as a:
· book weighing 500gms
| |||||||||||
d
|
Carrying out fine motor/finger movements such as:
· doing up a button on a blouse or shirt,
· tying a knot
· opening a door with a key
· picking up and moving a 5 pence coin – so as to insert into a slot in a machine/box
· turning the pages of a book
| |||||||||||
e
|
Creating with the dominant hand a legible message of one sentence
| |||||||||||
e
|
Using a keyboard, mouse, cash till, telephone keypad, or similar piece of equipment/machinery
| |||||||||||
Task – task performance
| ||||||||||||
7. Executing Tasks
Executing tasks reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
| ||||||||||||
a
|
Has no difficulty executing tasks
| |||||||||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||
b
|
Needs additional time to complete some tasks such that the task would take somewhat longer
| |||||||||||
c
|
Needs additional time to complete some tasks such that the task would take significantly longer
| |||||||||||
d
|
Needs additional time to complete most tasks such that the task would take somewhat longer
| |||||||||||
e
|
Needs additional time to complete most tasks such that the task would take significantly longer
| |||||||||||
8. Maintaining Focus
Maintain focus to complete tasks reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
| ||||||||||||
a
|
Has no difficulty maintaining focus
| |||||||||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||
b
|
Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on some tasks[5]
| |||||||||||
c
|
Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on most tasks
| |||||||||||
d
|
Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on all tasks
| |||||||||||
9. Learning Tasks
Learning processes necessary to having a job, and undertaking tasks within it | ||||||||||||
a
|
Is able to learn processes necessary to having a job
| |||||||||||
No longer requires support to carry out the task after
| ||||||||||||
2-3 occasions
|
Between 4 and 9 occasions
|
10 or more occasions
|
Cannot learn task
| |||||||||
b
|
Has difficulties learning a complex task[6]
| |||||||||||
c
|
Has difficulties learning a moderately complex task
| |||||||||||
d
|
Has difficulties learning a simple task
| |||||||||||
Task - risk
| ||||||||||||
10. Awareness of Hazards
Being aware of potential hazards.
| ||||||||||||
a
|
Is fully aware of potential hazards
| |||||||||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||
b
|
Some reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
| |||||||||||
c
|
Moderately reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
| |||||||||||
d
|
Significantly reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
| |||||||||||
11. Consciousness
| ||||||||||||
a
|
Does not experience episodes of lost or altered consciousness
| |||||||||||
At least twice in last 6 months
|
At least once a month in the last 6 months
|
At least once a week
| ||||||||||
b
|
Has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significant disrupted awareness or concentration with a recovery time that is normally less than one hour
| |||||||||||
c
|
Has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significant disrupted awareness or concentration with a recovery timethat is normally more than one hour
| |||||||||||
12. Bladder/ bowel continence
| ||||||||||||
a
|
Has no difficulty with continence
| |||||||||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||
b
|
Experiences an unusual and/or frequent need to use the toilet (or manage a collecting device), due to an underlying health condition or the side effects of essential medication
| |||||||||||
c
|
Without immediate urgent access[2] to a toilet, suitably modified where appropriate, would experience loss of control
| |||||||||||
d
|
Has experienced unpredictable or recurrent loss of control[1]
| |||||||||||
Communication
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13. Understanding communication
Understanding communication reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, by both verbal means (such as hearing or lip reading), non-verbal means (such as intonation or body language) andwritten means (such as reading 16 point print or Braille), using any aid it is reasonable to expect them to use
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
a
|
Has no difficulty understanding communication
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Due to sensory, cognitive or social difficulties:
|
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
b
|
Has some difficulty understanding complex information from a stranger
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
c
|
Has significant difficulty understanding complex information from a stranger
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
d
|
Has some difficulty understanding simple information from a stranger
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
e
|
Has significant difficulty understanding simple information from a stranger
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Supporting behaviours for work
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
15. Social Engagement
Engaging socially
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
a
|
Has no difficulty engaging socially reliably, repeatedly and safely, unaided by another person.
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Because of difficulties interacting with others, anxiety, distress or other emotions:
|
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
b
|
Has some difficulty with social engagement with people unknown to the person
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
c
|
Has significant difficulty with social engagement with people unknown to the person
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
d
|
Has some difficulty with social engagement with people known to the person
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
e
|
Has significant difficulty with social engagement with people known to the person
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
16. Organising self and planning (was Managing self and schedule)
| |||||
a
|
Has no difficulty managing him/herself and his/her schedule reliably, repeatedly and safely, unaided by another person.
| ||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| ||
b
|
Has some difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for much of the day
| ||||
c
|
Has significant difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for much of the day
| ||||
d
|
Has some difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for short periods
| ||||
e
|
Has significant difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for short periods
| ||||
17. Coping with Change
| |||||
a
|
Has no difficulty coping with minor planned changes to daily routine unaided by another person.
| ||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| ||
b
|
Experiences some difficulties with unplanned changes to daily routine.
| ||||
c
|
Experiences significant difficulties with unplanned changes to daily routine.
| ||||
d
|
Experiences some difficulties with planned changes to daily routine.
| ||||
e
|
Experiences significant difficulties with planned changes to daily routine.
| ||||
18. Appropriateness of Behaviour
| |||||
a
|
Display behaviour which work colleagues consider appropriate reliably, repeatedly and safely without support from another person
| ||||
N/A
|
Occ
|
Freq
|
Most
| ||
b
|
May display moderate verbally aggressive or socially inappropriate behaviour
| ||||
c
|
May display severe verbally aggressive or socially inappropriate behaviour
| ||||
d
|
May display physically aggressive behaviour
| ||||
had a quick read & didn't see any mention of medication affecting ability to do tasks, Take quite a few pain tablets & another medication because my sleep is disturbed. Note on the pack it says whilst on the medication I shouldn't drive or operate machinery.
ReplyDeleteIf asked I could manage some of the tasks but would have problem if I had to do it repeatedly.
I also find if I overdo things one day the effects can last for days at a time.
I think they should consider if the person has tried to return to work and note the effects, my last attempt with permission involved 3 hours a day 2 days a week and they stopped me doing it after 2 weeks because the effects were obvious.
My main problem is constant chronic pain and despite all the treatments I've received the diagnosis was they couldn't do anymore to help improve it, they also said if I don't manage it carefully it would get worse quicker. There should be some consideration if a medical condition cannot be treated or improved, surely evidence from the consultant should play a part.
One assumes that the current rubric, that difficulties can arise from a condition or the effects of medication (or a combination), will still be applied.
DeleteRepetition is mentioned in most of the proposed descriptors.
However, we need clarity on how soon repetition applies - many people, as you say, get effects lasting days. As well as considering following days, we need to consider how frequently something would have to be repeated if you were doing it as part of a job - most would need to be done many, many times a day.
I certainly think the effects of prescription medication should be taken into account.
DeleteMedication plays a part on my ability to carry out tasks. Over and above any physical considerations, if I were to take my medication as prescribed there would be Health and Safety implications due to drowsiness affecting concentration and cognitive functions.
Me too I am on some 20 different medications for heart, diabetes, depression, anxiety, and pain and they basically knock me out and sometimes I get very sick either after taking them or sometimes also when I have forgotten to take them.
DeletePeriods of reduced or impaired concentration are back to requiring "lost or altered consciousness", which has historically been interpreted pretty narrowly. There is, however, "maintaining focus", which is an improvement.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see 16, "managing schedule" (okay, now titled "organising self and planning") one elaborated on - would a persistent problem with one aspect of a schedule (eg getting up in the morning) be considered, and if so as what descriptor? From a 'real world' point of view, this would obviously make sense, to give points for problems with excessive sleep inertia. Employers take a dim view of people who can't reliably get up in the morning.
The zero point descriptor for 17, "coping with change", only requires no difficulty with planned changes, yet some scoring descriptors refer to unplanned changes, leading to possible confusion over what to apply. It should refer to unplanned changes in the zero point descriptor.
For 12, continence, I'm not sure what an "unusual need to use the toilet" would be.
Yes, I agree there should be elaboration on 16. Sleep and lack of inertia for example can be very debilitating aspects of a person's condition. Especially when you can't get out of bed in the morning And/or suffer from fatigue which varies in severity and occurrence.
DeleteThe interpretation of conciousness mentioned has been found to be wrong.
DeleteIt has been found that the old IB test of 'incapable of any deliberate act' - is not applicable to ESA.
http://www.administrativeappeals.tribunals.gov.uk/aspx/view.aspx?id=3256
In addition, the descriptor for conciousness needs to make it clear that 'time to recover' is time from the beginning of the incident.
DeleteIf you take a minute to recover from an hour long attack, ...
Hi Sue
ReplyDeleteI notices on Kayla's Blog there was some additional information about the descriptors:
Key
N/A – Not applicable
Occ – Occasionally
Freq – Frequently
Most – Most or all of the time
[1] Some difficulty - could include has to do so at a slow pace and to stop during the process of walking the distance on one occasion. May have problems with balance but not at risk of falling.
[2] Long periods - can walk for a period of 10 minutes or distance of 500m, (journey to/from work: having to get out of a house to a bus stop or equivalent)
[3] Significant difficulty - could include the pace would be significantly slow, movement is restricted or painful, the person has to stop on more that one occasion, there is a significant risk / history of falling, or is unable to mobilise independently.
[4] Short period - can walk for a period of a minute (whatever consensus is for times) or distance of 50m (something that represents moving around in a work place).
[5] Tasks to be defined/ examples given
[6] Note: As an initial indicator of the level of tasks, provisional definitions of tasks could include toe following (will need further work and consultation with Mencap):
- Simple task – photocopying a single piece of paper, sweeping up
- Moderately complex task – taking a simple phone message, finding a particular item of food in a supermarket
- Complex task – ?? searching a database,working a till, taking minutes
There was also another section of explanations that is linked to something I was unable to access, I could only get as far as:
1. ‘Immediate access to a toilet’ should be defined as the ability to access a toilet in less than five minutes, with appropriate support
I agree, the mobilising descriptors need to be quantified. Acceptable aids need to be specified, for example "not electric wheelchair".
DeleteI would suggest "difficulty" is not split into "some" or "significant". To my mind "difficulty" means this function cannot be performed at work. Then the function should be clearly described, for example:
Mobilising continuously for 30mins, for 10mins, for 1min. I'm not sure if a distance needs to be given, but if so, minimum distances covered in that time: "at least 50m" and so on, could be added in brackets.
It is then possible for the assessor to enquire what the difficulty is, for example balance, breathing, joint pain...
A flight of 12 stairs is considerable, there needs to be a lesser goal of 3 steps as well.
I'm not sure what it used to be (I haven't been migrated yet) but the lost or altered consciousness bit - was it always how long it takes to recover? I faint up to 8 times a day every day, but I recover pretty quickly so I wouldn't score much on that. And yet I'd be a health and safety nightmare in a work environment!
ReplyDeleteI've had a read and can't find anything that would cover pain conditions (e.g. Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) / Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy (RSD)). I think it was in Prof. Harrington's second report that he acknowledged that pain is not accounted for in ESA and yet has a huge impact on whether you can work or not. The descriptors would really benefit from a "Pain" descriptor, this could be incorporated into a Pain and Fatigue descriptor which would cover things like pain conditions (e.g. CRPS/RSD), CFS/ME, Fibromyalgia as well as other conditions causing debilitating pain. It is not enough to do scoring based on medications taken either because often medication is ineffective and so may not be prescribed but the pain is then severe and uncontrolled.
ReplyDeleteIt's there under points 4,5 and 6: Standing and Sitting, Reaching, Picking Up and Moving, Manual Dexterity/Hand Movement... under "significant discomfort". But yes, "or pain" should be added to make it clearer.
DeleteThe wording and arrangement of these first five points is atrociously unclear. Why not set up the qualifiers, the "reliably, repeatedly, safely, in a timely manner, using appropriate aids, without assistance from another person" and then the task, eg:
· Staying in one position (such as a workstation) either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and
· Moving between this position and another.
- and then put in the categories to tick, either "not at all", "for 30mins", "for at least an hour"?
That would make it easier for the assessor and for us.
One small point jumps out at me in relation to the descriptors on 'navigating'. All descripors contain the phrase "due to sensory impairment". Sensory impairment is not the only reason that a person may have difficulty navigating.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I have always had quite marked dyspraxia as well as dyslexia. Prior to developing a disability, this was a very small issue. However, it does mean that I profoundly struggle to comprehend where places are in relation to other places, and this makes disruption to known routes, or finding new routes very problematic for me. I have been totally stranded, and needed police assistance before, when road works blocked where I needed to cross a road, because my dyspraxia interacted with my ability to find an alternative wheelchair friendly crossing point that still had me facing in the right direction. It was the fact that the roadworks blocked the only wheelchair access out of the tube station on that occasion that was the biggest issue, but another wheelchair user wouldn't have been as paniced by not being able to plan a new route because they couldn't comprehend a mental map of where they were in relation to where they needed to be. This kind of navigation difficulty is actually quite common, and in an otherwise non-disabled person it can be very minor in effect, they get lost more and walk the longer way around, but nothing more. Add other disabilities to the mix and it can lead, as it has with me, to total panic and requiring emergency services assistance. Yet, by those descriptors, someone could be virtually housebond due to this kind of difficulty and still score zero if the reason for their difficulty is neuro-diversity not sensory impairment
I agree. I have problems navigating due to results,now permanent, of head injury, which means I don't remember the way to places even quite local or I have been several times before. I can easily get lost, not know which way to go, so I have to have someone with me if I go out a) to drive for me and b) to accompany me anywhere on foot, plus loads of other reasons in the mix, such as loss of balance walking or turning head to cross road.
Delete"Sensory" impairment seems to me to really mean just the ability to see.
Sensory impairment
The idea is to avoid double counting.
DeleteBlind people get points under the navigating descriptor, those with 'mental' problems under getting about.
You need to be blind, with problems with distress or disorientation, in order to count under both.
So, Anonymous would gain points under 'disorientation'.
Confusing questions, do they all need to be answered? ie some as oppsed to significant, also agree about the navigating - sensory impairment is not the only difficulty.
ReplyDeletethese are much better than before - so many thanks to you all for all your hard work ( to put it mildly !) Sue
ReplyDeleteMy key question is are they leaving out 'it varies' Happy to see CraftyWeeBee has clarified that this has been refined to the 4 point key which makes good sense.
I continue to wonder why there is no reference to impaired respiratory function
I agree with Farnam (having spent a few years with brain damage) that there is nothing in there to cover spatial impairment - or indeed a range of neurological disabilities/'wiring' damage.
I agree re no ref to pain levels - although it's subjective, medics use a 1 - 10 scale for self-assessment
Of course no single form can cover every condition - so I do
I hope there will be a clearly marked sentence to stress that respondents can also add their own notes to clarify the basic points on the form.
thanks Sue and hope you feel better soon xxx
Agree with this, and all above
DeleteEspecially 'it varies' is crucial for all fluctuating conditions.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI must remind everyone that I had nothing at all to do with the descriptors, other than feeding back a few initial concerns to mind.
DeleteNo credit due here, just allowing my blog to be used as a vehicle to get the info out.
They are very much better- I just pray that there is something in there about fatigue and pain. It needs to be there all over the place - People with MS etc get fatigued by doing very little and it changes from ne moment to the nect not even one day to the next!
ReplyDeleteIt is so much better - I just hope that it truly makes a difference and I thank you and Kaliya for making this happen.
Interesting potential changes. Although there is nothing on there I can see about paranoia about strutting sexist, racist, homophobic men. Do you think the "Health Care professional" will understand if I explain that to them? When I explain about my previous workplaces?
ReplyDeletethe navigating also needs to include for anxiety related reasons not being able to navigate round a place. I can sometimes get somewhere, but then when I get there (for example a supermarket known to me) cannot get round it and go into a complete jelly state and have to leave without having got my groceries.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the movement discriptors are better than before. The arm ones are also very good, they basically describe what I had put in my ESA50 (which was ignored) the inclusion of repeatedly & safely should also help.
ReplyDeleteI have to also agree about the fatigue, this too is part of my condition, although it can be brought on by 'overdoing' it in some way, most times there is no reason for it and can leave you like that for days and it effects memory etc.
A lot of my own problems are physical but I can understand if there needs be more improvement in the other descriptors.
Seems like a big improvement to me at quick reading.
ReplyDeleteBut WHY do they always shy away from putting PAIN into the descriptors. It MUST explicitly be there. It affects everything in life from what you can physically do, concentration, mood, ability to sleep and therefore function the next day, as do the meds needed. Only someone who hasn't lived every minute of every day in pain for years could think this could be left out.
Many thanks to Sue and Kaliya for working so hard on this.
We all owe you an enormous debt. I so hope you will both find some recovery time from somewhere or ask for help with things other people could do.
I wonder why the sudden rush to get this sorted? Could it be Grayling is kacking himself at the Parliamentary debate on the WCA due on 4th September? He jut wants something to say like "we've produced new descriptors, so please don't make me lose my job for the suffering I've knowingly inflicted on thousands of sick people" We will NEVER forget or forgive and there will be a day of reckoning.
"WHY do they always shy away from putting PAIN into the descriptors...."
DeleteThey don't! This government takes pain for granted. They are very inclusive about it. The pain of the population is there for all to see!
Sorry, not feeling so good myself at the moment but I just wanted you to know I have read it and to say I think there should be something in there about pain, fatigue and the after effects of doing certain things/work/jobs/tasks etc, unless I am missing something (as I said I am not too good at the moment and brain fog is one of my symptoms...)Thanks Sue & Kaliya for both publishing this. x
ReplyDeleteDefinitely a lot more information can be given, in my opinion its a huge improvement on the current one.
ReplyDeleteIf the percentage rises from 12% of claimants being put into the Support Group, only then will it prove to be a substantial improvement.
Get well Sue. Thanks for posting.
Yes these descriptors are for the assessor to fill in, he/she makes that judgement where to leave a cross. So not the whole info from our assessment form that we fill in, should or need appear here.
ReplyDeleteIf in the interview we say we would be too tired to repeat something again, either the same day or the next, then that should cover the after-effects of performing a particular task. If we can't recover, we can't do the task repeatedly.
This is why a recording is useful, should the assessor somehow not register that, in effect, we cannot do a certain task.
This is only for ATOS to fill in? Great - so I now feel doomed again I thought we got to fill in that OUR problems are - If ATOS decided to say something untrue then it wont make a difference :-(
Deletemobilising manual wheelchair or other aid normally used worries me as fear that could be altered to mean powerchair as well to deny ESA to more people.
ReplyDeletemovement at a work station, wheelchair/powerchair users are penalised on this one, discomfort can't be alleviated by moving around as permanently seated. modern powerchairs have gismos to overcome this but are not nhs supplied and would not possibly be 'workstation' friendly but feel this point will be disregarded.
nothing about requiring physical assistance to transfer from one seated position to another such as a wheelie onto the toilet.
no mention of the ability to eat or drink unaided which previously was a very good immediate 'filter' for the profoundly disabled.
wheelie, bending, reaching, stretching and lifting has the potential to be dangerous, health and safety issue being overlooked as is ability to safely evacuate the workplace
on these new descriptors feel the physically disabled lose out but that is only my personal opinion
Hi Sue
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for all your work on this.
Just a couple of points from my perspective as a chronic basilar/vestibular/classic migraineur. I'm in the middle of a migraine so if any of this is confused/muddled please ask me to clarify.
Part 5 Reaching, picking up and moving
Reaching up, down or sideways a reasonable distance, and picking up and move a range of differently-sized objects up to 1kg:
Does not take into account a limitation on head and eye movements related to vestibular disorders which are part of vestibular/basilar migraine. This means that moving the eyes or turning the head, even if the body remains still,can result in vertigo(rotational spinning)/loss of balance. Episodic ataxia would also impact on this section, and I'm not sure if that has been accounted for.
8.Maintaining Focus
Maintain focus to complete tasks reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
This does not take into account a change in the level/loss of consciousness that can be experienced in basilar migraine. However I do note that there is a separate question on consciousness.
I'd also echo that of others, that the effect/impact of chronic pain is not addressed, nor the effect of medications taken to deal with this. I like many, take medications which state not to drive or operate machinery if they make me sleepy and have countless other side effects which are significant enough to disrupt my ability to operate.
Kindest
I think these are an improvement - for myself, even though pain and fatigue aren't mentioned I'd feel happier about saying I "can't" do things under the safely/reliably/repeatedly clause. The scoring is going to be important though - since they've removed the criterion about time you're able to stand (without sitting) my problems are all under the first category, which presumably means I'd need full points there.
ReplyDeleteSue wrote _ "...it appears to me that this is much closer to what a joint test for ESA and PIP would look like..."
ReplyDeleteIs it expected that one test will be used for both, and is that desirable? Seems to me it would lead to PIP judgements also being made on whether you are capable of working, and that you would only receive PIP if you were not fit to work. This would surely be a complete change to the principles of DLA, and people would be deprived of a benefit which could help them to work.
Sorry if this is an idiot question, but I have not been following this discussion closely.
Quick response because like you I don't have the health for a detailed response.
ReplyDelete1) why is movement in and outdoors put together? Indoors surfaces tend to be flat (eg no broken pavements, sticks, stones, tree roots, sideways slants...) and there are walls and furniture available to lean on. There is also furniture available to sit/rest on if have sudden loss of strength/balance.
ii) why is there no discussion of communication with friends/family. If I can't communicate with a stranger it is always (for me) equally difficult to communicate with someone I know well.
iii) over-reliance on use of aids (again). Aids are expensive to buy and maintain, and who decides what is suitable for a particular person and their condition?
not at all convinced by these 'changes' - in fact not at all convinced of the process. Atos are still under the direction to use only 'positive' experience of people's abilities. These desciptor things therefore are no more than fiddling about to look good. Thw WCA should be stopped now!!!
ReplyDeleteThese descriptors make it WORSE not better for someone like myself who suffers from OCD. The more options given the worse it is to make one's mind up. Also when asked how often something occurs, the answer for those with unpredictable illnesses such as mental illness, is not something that is easy to gauge with a tick box. So sometimes something might happen 7 days a week, other weeks none. Also, in guidance given say by B&W, it says that if something has occured with dangerous consequences for yourself or others, then it might be reasonable to suppose for example with the "going out" descriptor that even though you do go out, because of the incident you should not be doing so unsupervised. There is no tick box for such a scenario. In my view it would be better to have a form more like the DLA form with fewer tick boxes and more room for your own description so the answers can be explained more thoroughly. Finally, only 2 descriptors add "reliably, repeatedly, safely & timely" and I was under the impression that legally this should apply to ALL the descriptors?
ReplyDeleteThis is not for the ESA50 work capability assessment form that we fill out ourselves. Though that might be changed to fit in with some of these changes.
DeleteThe tick box descriptors are for the assessors, but we are seeing how this will look to them, the things they will have to determine.
This is the link for the current ESA50:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@money/documents/digitalasset/dg_195544.pdf
The current descriptors can be found in the WCA Handbook:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf
So you put in your form that you have had so many incidents when you've gone out, or better still, have someone to help you fill out that form because as you say, it's important to know what to include.
I can only judge the movement/lifting points, which are badly worded and organised so they must sort that out. But use the "timely, safely,.. " etc for each point.
Someone wrote "why don't they include pain?" It's there, or "discomfort" is, not always in the same place, so it could easily be overlooked by the assessor. That should be sufficient, but you need to write into your ESA50 that you have considerable pain or the assessor won't take notice of it.
As a general point, addressing all of the descriptors.
ReplyDeleteIt needs to be made clear that this is in a work-like environment.
Taking a descriptor at random "Movement – at a work station
"Staying in one position (such as a workstation) for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and Moving between this position and another. "
Can I do this?
Taking as an isolated question, yes, I can do this on most days.
The problem arises when real life creeps in.
Can I do the above, if I also have to care for myself, at a predetermined hour, after getting transport to the above place (I do not live in town), and do this day after day?
Not a hope.
It occurs to me that my three year old granddaughter would show up pretty well on most of these. Does that mean she should get a job? Isn’t there anyone with the wit to figure out that the reasons why you could work should maybe be considered along with the reasons why perhaps you should/could not. This very mechanical approach to work related tasks is really pretty barbaric.
ReplyDeleteHow are people with learning disabilities/autism/brain damage supposed to deal with this?
Thank you so much Sue and Kaliya for this.
ReplyDeleteMy partner has MS, and although she works full time now, she might not be able to in the future. These changes make me much less scared for her if the time comes when she would need to go through this assessment.
I can however see areas where potentially she might have issues that would make it difficult for her to work, but which would not be picked up by these questions.
Mobilising
It is not clear if every section has to be completed – in my partner’s case, there are often times when she is unable to climb a flight of stairs, but on the flat she could be ok.
Getting About/Navigating
What is the difference between ‘navigating’ and ‘getting about’? As others have pointed out, there are other reasons for problems navigating than sensory ones. My partner has in the past got completely lost in an area she knows very well. The ‘Getting About’ section might cover this, but it is not clear.
Manual dexterity
This section talks about being able to do things without pain or discomfort, but no mention of fatigue. When fatigued, my partner often has poor grip and poor strength such that she cannot grip or hold or press things. She also would not be able to type. There’s not necessarily pain or discomfort, she just can’t do it.
Sitting/Standing
Answer a says ‘Able to stay in one position for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and able to move between this position and another’
Whereas the other options talk about not being able to sit and stand for more than an hour/30mins. This is confusing. If you can stand for one hour but no more, which applies?
Shouldn’t option a state ‘Able to stay in one position for more than one hour…’
Also I don’t think 1 hour reflects what would reasonably be expected of anyone in a work environment. Should it at least reflect what would be expected in a typical part time shift?
When my partner is particularly fatigued, she cannot sit or stand for one hour without needing to lie down. She works from home most days, so can work from bed if needed, but obviously most jobs don’t allow for this.
Bladder/Bowel continence
It’s not an issue for my partner, but it’s not clear if this section also includes vomiting. If you are sick a lot due to medication or your condition, then that should be taken into account.
I still think that there needs to be something more concrete about fatigue and pain that specifically asks the assessor/decision maker to think about the combined effect on the person of doing all the actions in succession. E.g. someone might be able to walk 50m OR sit at a workstation for an hour OR concentrate on a task. But all combined might be too much, especially once you add in getting up, showered, dressed, breakfast, commuting…and remaining alert and focused for the whole working day such that you can respond to the needs of the job and workplace in a professional manner.
There is nothing here for anxiety conditions. ESA50 doesn't
ReplyDeletehave any either. I suffer from Chronic Anxiety and Hyperacusis ( complete breakdown of tolerance to noise).
Hyperacusis is excluded from benefit entitlement/assessment).
The debilitating somatic symptoms of anxiety are excluded from ESA50 and from these descriptors. The only mental
health category seems to be the one referring to aggressive
behaviour as a danger to others. But you would have to be deemed pychotic to fulfill that! Fear, intrinsic to anxiety, is not taken into account at all.
My Hyperacusis means I have to live in accomodation which is much more expensive than I would wish, i.e. very secluded, and in the quietest possible location. It takes my one person Local Housing Allowance plus my ESA plus my DLA to
pay the rent (I have a tiny bit over) to live on. But; my LHA is being cut in April, as is my Council Tax Benefit. God help!! I also have some other rotten physical conditions
(arthritis being one)
We MUST make PIP a fairer assessment for mental and physical conditions. It CAN'T be a repeat of ESA.
We must field as many Anti-Cuts election candidates as possible. If we take Labour votes in Corby, they would see
us as a threat and take notice. (Forget the Tories, vile beasts).
Most of my points have been made by others, so I'll just repeat them with addenda so that another tick appears on the list of "objections to ..."
ReplyDelete1] Seems like a joint ESA PIP assessment inevitable as a money-saving device but with different outcomes giving different results. Longer term ...
2] "only 2 descriptors add "reliably, repeatedly, safely & timely" - this should be put into all relevant tasks
3] "I still think that there needs to be something more concrete about fatigue and pain that specifically asks the assessor/decision maker to think about the combined effect on the person of doing all the actions in succession."
Not just repeating a single task. Consider also tasks carried out in combination - e.g packing a suitcase after a visit. Organise for packing, walk around room(s), find things, bend and stretch, lift (heavy)laptop into case, fold up clothes, papers accurately, handle medicines (eg syringes), move filled (heavy) suitcase in narrow space, interact with others as to where to put things. And that's the simple one - packing to go away much more difficult. (Recent experience - all had to be done by someone else, except the coordination which was difficult enough.)
4] "I have to also agree about the fatigue, this too is part of my condition, although it can be brought on by 'overdoing' it in some way, most times there is no reason for it and can leave you like that for days and it effects memory etc." In my case fatigue brings on lack of "focus" - affects memory, word finding and ability to follow written and spoken information. On bad day, or at the end of the day, one difficult paragraph and I'm finished.
5] "I just pray that there is something in there about fatigue and pain. It needs to be there all over the place - People with MS etc get fatigued by doing very little and it changes from one moment to the next not even one day to the next!" Goes for ME as well. Though I note that Unum have been careful to re-write their rules to try to exclude ME/CFS. I suspect that these rules will also get rewritten to make sure that it excludes as many as possible on financial grounds. Too many people fight crippling fatigue and pain - even under the current rules they are finding more very sick people than they thought. These rules may be designed to be fairer, but there will not be any more money for the extra people they will include.
6] " ‘Immediate access to a toilet’ should be defined as the ability to access a toilet in less than five minutes, with appropriate support" PLUS "without any stairs".
7] Like Stef Benstead's points:
"1) why is movement in and outdoors put together? Indoors surfaces tend to be flat (eg no broken pavements, sticks, stones, tree roots, sideways slants...) and there are walls and furniture available to lean on. There is also furniture available to sit/rest on if have sudden loss of strength/balance. YES YES YES
ii) why is there no discussion of communication with friends/family. If I can't communicate with a stranger it is always (for me) equally difficult to communicate with someone I know well." Plus when fatigue cuts in you can add "loss of focus" - which causes communication problems. Hard if you can't remember what they said a minute ago.
8] Ability to move things needs to include the ability not just to lift but to put down accurately. What happens if you can pick up a jam jar but are likely to put it down on top of the cup of tea, or the plate of bread and butter? (or, at Tesco till, on top of the sponge cake.)
Sorry for scrappiness and possibly being too late to help.
Like others I noticed effects of medication are not mentioned, not only do my medication make me extremely tired but also make me aggressive if people say things I don't like, employers will take effects of medication into account before even contemplating giving an interview never mind a job, but when it comes to benefits they don't care it's anything that will save them paying out.
ReplyDeleteThis is BS! Its basicly robbing peter to pay paul. Dont be fooled into any revisions from this spinning lot.
ReplyDeleteThe end is nigh...
I expect I am too late for comment so will just say that I agree with Carruthers.
ReplyDeleteDoes it say anything about severe panic attacks and mood swings? Do they understand how these issues mess your life up totally? Never mind work having anxiety problems ruins everything.
ReplyDeleteMy friend killed himself after being told he was fit for work.
Here is a youtube I did for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJL7fvXeMQg
RIP Bill.